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Post by bladefd on Dec 27, 2017 8:41:12 GMT
OutRosez @iamoutbreak T'Chayda @everyone with the last jedi out, how would you guys rank the series (including rogue one)? Hmmm.. 5 4 6 7 Rogue one 8 3 2 . . . . . . . . . 1
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Post by OutRosez on Dec 27, 2017 9:22:42 GMT
The only truly bad thing was space wizard Leia which is worse than ANYTHING Lucas ever did, fight me Jedis have the power to create a force bubble around them to resist the effects of their surroundings for a short time. That was completely within bounds with the power of a Jedi. And its still awful to watch.
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Post by OutRosez on Dec 27, 2017 9:33:02 GMT
Also how is Chris Terrio still involved in this? He's had a good movie that Ben Affleck probably wrote more of than he did. A movie that people only like the extended cut of, and a movie critics hated while fans seemingly liked, although i'm pretty sure Whedon had more to do with that than Terrio did. Disney what you doing? I'm not even that keen on JJ being back, I mean I like him and all and TFA is fine but meh. JJ Abrams and crew did a better job on writing for episode 7. Episode 8 writing was bit lacking. No way, 8 was way way way way way way way way way way way way way way better written. It's like a rewrite and a half away from being a perfect script. 7 is nice, but its largely a rehash with fan service that does nothing new except make the girl the lead protagonist and give her a minority love interest instead of a white dude. Bad ass pilot who is suave and good looking? Check Person who doesn't believe in the force/Jedi? replace it with know about and you have the same thing. Person who grew up on a rural desert planet who also rescues a droid? Yep. Blow up a giant death star? Yep. The only thing new about it was they killed Han Solo. It's fine. It works but its not a masterpiece. Neither is the TLJ but Rian at least tried different things and told a new narrative. Meanwhile VIII did the fan service, did the homages to the OT (and some slight prequels ones), and then took everything in the Star Wars universe and tossed it out when necessary. Even the Las Vegas planet stuff doesn't last as bad. The only awful part is space wizard Leia. Everything is mostly well done. There's some Luke dialogue I'd change/toss out. You could avoid the Las Vegas shit entirely, but at least on the second viewing it works better. It tells a concise narrative while weaving the side plots into it fairly enough.
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Post by OutRosez on Dec 27, 2017 9:34:44 GMT
Lampz now that I've seen it again I'd go Jedi TLJ Empire Hope Rogue One TFA Sith Menace Clones
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T'Chayda
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Post by T'Chayda on Dec 27, 2017 13:33:48 GMT
Revenge of the sith >>>>
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2017 15:42:43 GMT
I rewatched it and this movie is amazing.
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Post by T'Chayda on Dec 27, 2017 15:49:03 GMT
I rewatched it and this movie is amazing. Is Kylo's body sexier on rewatch?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2017 16:01:19 GMT
I rewatched it and this movie is amazing. Is Kylo's body sexier on rewatch? Is water wet?
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Post by T'Chayda on Dec 27, 2017 16:02:56 GMT
Is Kylo's body sexier on rewatch? Is water wet? No one knows the answer to that!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2017 16:05:02 GMT
No one knows the answer to that! The answer eludes for those whose minds aren't woke.
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Post by bladefd on Dec 27, 2017 20:15:06 GMT
JJ Abrams and crew did a better job on writing for episode 7. Episode 8 writing was bit lacking. No way, 8 was way way way way way way way way way way way way way way better written. It's like a rewrite and a half away from being a perfect script. 7 is nice, but its largely a rehash with fan service that does nothing new except make the girl the lead protagonist and give her a minority love interest instead of a white dude. Bad ass pilot who is suave and good looking? Check Person who doesn't believe in the force/Jedi? replace it with know about and you have the same thing. Person who grew up on a rural desert planet who also rescues a droid? Yep. Blow up a giant death star? Yep. The only thing new about it was they killed Han Solo. It's fine. It works but its not a masterpiece. Neither is the TLJ but Rian at least tried different things and told a new narrative. Meanwhile VIII did the fan service, did the homages to the OT (and some slight prequels ones), and then took everything in the Star Wars universe and tossed it out when necessary. Even the Las Vegas planet stuff doesn't last as bad. The only awful part is space wizard Leia. Everything is mostly well done. There's some Luke dialogue I'd change/toss out. You could avoid the Las Vegas shit entirely, but at least on the second viewing it works better. It tells a concise narrative while weaving the side plots into it fairly enough. By writing, I am talking specifically about the plot. Not the screenplay but the overall plot and suspense buildup/character development. 7 builds up the villains nicely and this adventure Luke is on to find answers. Rey goes to find Luke not only to seek training but answers. Answers that we thought a wise jedi knight went to find, and a Jedi knight with access to immortal yoda/Obi-Wan/anakin. Episode 8 derails all that instantly that was built up nicely. Nothing mysterious except Luke had given up, lost himself, closed himself from the force. Horrendous. They destroyed everything Luke stood for and the strength, hope, willpower he had the writer turned into this deranged old man. Bring Timothy Zahn and he will write a plot 100x times better than this. There was so much to work with and so many directions to take the plot after episode 7, but they completely botched it. If I was rating just the plot alone (one piece of the script but a big part), it's a C-. Overall script I will give a B.
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Post by bladefd on Dec 27, 2017 20:35:33 GMT
How in the world could a Jedi knight with access to immortal Yoda/Obi-Wan/Anakin, 3 of the most powerful jedis in history become this way? Yoda is arguably the greatest jedi ever, anakin the chosen one, Obi-Wan wise beyond his years.
They tried too hard to throw everything from 2 to 6 out the window in episode 8. I don't mind going away from Skywalker family but you don't have to discard everything to get to a clean blackboard.
If you don't learn from the past then the past will continue to simply cycle itself over and over. Luke Skywalker had a chance to leave a lasting legacy on the jedi religion, an improvement going forward. Instead we took a few steps back. All the millennia of jedi teachings and knowledge thrown out the window. It died with Luke. I realize that Rey has the original jedi books, but is that enough? She doesn't even have Jedi training. Luke did get training from Obi-Wan and Yoda, then had access to their immortal beings so his training was complete. Rey just has the books, hopefully immortal Luke returns to complete her training and he isn't completely gone. Episode 9 can still redeem that.
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Post by Bandito. on Dec 27, 2017 23:33:41 GMT
Kylo is everything Vader wanted to be but couldn't. And he still has both hands attached with a cool scar to boot. Vader would destroy current Kylo Ren. Kylo would be outclassed by the chosen one. Now Kylo could improve his skills. Who trains him to reach Vader levels? He isn't there yet. Remember, at Kylos age, Anakin was a key to dismantling the Jedi temple on Coruscant. Anakin was close in skill to legendary Obi-Wan, who was one of the top jedi knights in his prime. Anakin was a big part in the Clone Wars as well, which speaks of tremendous war experience. Kylo lost to an untrained Rey using the light saber for her first time. Vader/Anakin was waaaaaaaay ahead of Kylo Ren by this age. Never said he was stronger. I meant by profits, power or whatever. Vader didn't rule shit, he was just Palpatine 's lackey until the end he died. Heck he had to pick him up from behind and toss it down a bridge in order to kill him and he still died due to being weak against electric attacks.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2017 23:40:53 GMT
Nothing mysterious except Luke had given up, lost himself, closed himself from the force. Horrendous. T Holy fuck you are dense. They legit explained how Luke has never made peace with his dark side. Look back at RotJ, he fucked up Vader and sliced off his hand out of pure anger. In Empire, he never made peace with his dark-half in the cave. When he saw the darkness in Kylo, he panicked, because he feared his own darkness and couldn't forgive himself for the mistake he made through his fear (trying to kill his nephew instead of helping him). Real storytelling requires flawed characters, yet I hear about of is wah wah muh Luke Skywalker is weaaak! They ruined himmmm!! Jesus fucking Christ, grow up people. Luke had the perfect ending and the best way to move on. Look back at the series, all the masters said Anakin is not the chosen one. Yoga said Luke isn't the chosen one and that there is another. Balance was never restored by either Skywalker. Anakin went too far dark. Luke went too far light. The whole premise of TLJ was to bring the real idea of the force into true balance, which both sides (of light and dark) need to come to peace with each other. Very Buddhist and Taoist belief. Luke has fallen, just like Obi Wan and Yoga had fallen after Vader's and Palpaltine's rise and they disappeared for decades, and waited until another young Jedi will continue to carry the mantel. Luke lost his hope and cut his own connection from the force. He needed someone with hope to reminded him of what he lost and an old master (yoga) to wake his ass up. His ending was beauty. He pulled off a miraculously force ability. He imparted a heartfelt message for his nephew, letting him know Luke and his father will never truly leave his side. He gave the time needed for the rebellion to escape. He had his finally farewell with his sisters. And he finally died doing his part to help shape a future, watching the same double suns he saw back in Tatoonie just before he began his first adventure. Coming full circle.
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Post by OutRosez on Dec 27, 2017 23:44:36 GMT
No way, 8 was way way way way way way way way way way way way way way better written. It's like a rewrite and a half away from being a perfect script. 7 is nice, but its largely a rehash with fan service that does nothing new except make the girl the lead protagonist and give her a minority love interest instead of a white dude. Bad ass pilot who is suave and good looking? Check Person who doesn't believe in the force/Jedi? replace it with know about and you have the same thing. Person who grew up on a rural desert planet who also rescues a droid? Yep. Blow up a giant death star? Yep. The only thing new about it was they killed Han Solo. It's fine. It works but its not a masterpiece. Neither is the TLJ but Rian at least tried different things and told a new narrative. Meanwhile VIII did the fan service, did the homages to the OT (and some slight prequels ones), and then took everything in the Star Wars universe and tossed it out when necessary. Even the Las Vegas planet stuff doesn't last as bad. The only awful part is space wizard Leia. Everything is mostly well done. There's some Luke dialogue I'd change/toss out. You could avoid the Las Vegas shit entirely, but at least on the second viewing it works better. It tells a concise narrative while weaving the side plots into it fairly enough. By writing, I am talking specifically about the plot. Not the screenplay but the overall plot and suspense buildup/character development. 7 builds up the villains nicely and this adventure Luke is on to find answers. Rey goes to find Luke not only to seek training but answers. Answers that we thought a wise jedi knight went to find, and a Jedi knight with access to immortal yoda/Obi-Wan/anakin. Episode 8 derails all that instantly that was built up nicely. Nothing mysterious except Luke had given up, lost himself, closed himself from the force. Horrendous. They destroyed everything Luke stood for and the strength, hope, willpower he had the writer turned into this deranged old man. Bring Timothy Zahn and he will write a plot 100x times better than this. There was so much to work with and so many directions to take the plot after episode 7, but they completely botched it. If I was rating just the plot alone (one piece of the script but a big part), it's a C-. Overall script I will give a B. I think Luke's actions are more or less fine. He was always rash and instinctual so trying to kill Ben makes sense, and lying about it does too although I'm more ehhh on that. He disobeyed uncle owen and aunt beru wound up getting them killed and nearly himself in doing so. He rather than make the logical decision of trusting his guidance computer he went with Obi-Wan's voice and used the force to blow up the death star. Yoda telling him not to go face Vader yet because he's not ready, and he does it anyway to save his friends. Listening to no one and trying to redeem Vader when everyone else thinks he's a lost cause. That's Luke, he doesn't make rational based decisions. They're generally emotionally based, which was always his weakness and why the emperor thought he could turn him. So Luke trying out of instinct/emotional response to kill Ben totally makes sense its within his character. Him walling himself off from everyone and severing his connection to the force makes sense, because he always wants to protect his friends. He failed Ben, Leia, Han, the other padawans he was teaching, that failure carries a burden on anyone. Especially someone like Luke who hadn't ever failed like that. He'd always saved his friends, redeemed his father, blown up the death star, and defeated the sith. Yeah he lost his aunt, uncle, and Obi-Wan, but he ultimately always succeeded, and he failed everyone that time. Totally makes sense to me why he reacted the way he did. And when push came to shove he came back to help them. There's some sloppy dialogue/logic in those scenes with Rey but Luke wasn't really the golden boy aside from always succeeding. He was a pretty flawed individual. Stubborn, reckless, emotional, and impulsive. Not a good mix, especially with Ben who is the same way.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2017 23:48:34 GMT
Well said, Rosie.
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Post by OutRosez on Dec 27, 2017 23:53:49 GMT
The main gripe I had with the Luke trying to kill Ben thing (aside from lying) is that they kind of? made him too dark. He was all about balance in the end and his two lessons to Rey were about that, but if you just look at it without thinking you think he's an old stick in the mud. It doesn't really work without looking entirely back on Luke as a whole and realizing that he's a light side of the force user, but there's definitely a lot of darkness in him. Which I think is a lot of the problem, you don't get a good scene with someone who explains to Rey/the audience that this isn't too surprising with Luke. That would be a Han thing, especially with the stuff Han said about him in TFA but it could work really well with Leia we just never got that. Maybe the third lesson that got cut from the movie would have dealt with that more? I don't know.
Which is why I think there's some major dialogue script issues with the Luke/Rey scenes. He teaches her "grey Jedi" type shit, but preaches kind of grim/dark/emotional/outright lies to her which is conflicting with what he was trying to do. I get it to an extent and you get the plot without it but damn I think a lot of the more fan boy-y complaints would have been addressed with someone looking over those lines and being like "hmmm...I get it but here's what we need for a better explanation"
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2017 0:06:41 GMT
Which is why I think there's some major dialogue script issues with the Luke/Rey scenes. He teaches her "grey Jedi" type shit, but preaches kind of grim/dark/emotional/outright lies to her which is conflicting with what he was trying to do. I get it to an extent and you get the plot without it but damn I think a lot of the more fan boy-y complaints would have been addressed with someone looking over those lines and being like "hmmm...I get it but here's what we need for a better explanation" It does explain that Luke's teaching is still incomplete. Yoga even says he still has a lot to learn. Luke understands enough about the force to start teaching it, but as soon as the darkness comes up (the hole), he freaked the fucked out and accused Rey for being drawn to the darkside, the same way Kylo was. Like, how more obvious do you need to be? Does there need to be a line where Luke plainly states, "I'm afraid of my darkside!"? Then everybody will still be complaining about how cheap that line is.
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T'Chayda
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Post by T'Chayda on Dec 28, 2017 2:28:49 GMT
Count Dooku is and always will be there strongest Jedi
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Post by OutRosez on Dec 28, 2017 3:54:59 GMT
Which is why I think there's some major dialogue script issues with the Luke/Rey scenes. He teaches her "grey Jedi" type shit, but preaches kind of grim/dark/emotional/outright lies to her which is conflicting with what he was trying to do. I get it to an extent and you get the plot without it but damn I think a lot of the more fan boy-y complaints would have been addressed with someone looking over those lines and being like "hmmm...I get it but here's what we need for a better explanation" It does explain that Luke's teaching is still incomplete. Yoga even says he still has a lot to learn. Luke understands enough about the force to start teaching it, but as soon as the darkness comes up (the hole), he freaked the fucked out and accused Rey for being drawn to the darkside, the same way Kylo was. Like, how more obvious do you need to be? Does there need to be a line where Luke plainly states, "I'm afraid of my darkside!"? Then everybody will still be complaining about how cheap that line is. I just want to see him acknowledge that he struggles with it, the third lesson (or some other dialogue) could/would have been easy. I think the hole was meant to show something else. It was supposed to tell Rey how easy it was for Ben to see the dark side and go along the same path, and he wanted to pass that on to Rey and it also conveys like you said his own struggles with the dark side. Unfortunately she just dove right in and gave no fucks much like Ben, but unlike him she at least wants to stay with the light. The last thing Luke wants is to fuck everyone over again by having Rey turn as well  which is why I think he was basically all "and we're done here folks!"
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Post by bladefd on Dec 28, 2017 20:18:48 GMT
Just read the posts above. I will respond tomorrow or day after tomorrow. Looks like I will have to explain Star Wars canon. Will be a thorough response so I need my pc for that. Currently getting some flooring done in my room today so my pc is sitting unplugged. Too difficult to type long stuff on my phone.
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Post by T'Chayda on Dec 28, 2017 20:32:11 GMT
Just read the posts above. I will respond tomorrow or day after tomorrow. Looks like I will have to explain Star Wars canon. Will be a thorough response so I need my pc for that. Currently getting some flooring done in my room today so my pc is sitting unplugged. Too difficult to type long stuff on my phone. Looking forward to it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2017 22:13:45 GMT
Just read the posts above. I will respond tomorrow or day after tomorrow. Looks like I will have to explain Star Wars canon. Will be a thorough response so I need my pc for that. Currently getting some flooring done in my room today so my pc is sitting unplugged. Too difficult to type long stuff on my phone. You are aware everything outside the original and prequel movies before the Disney buyout is no longer canon?
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Post by bladefd on Dec 30, 2017 3:43:07 GMT
They legit explained how Luke has never made peace with his dark side. Look back at RotJ, he fucked up Vader and sliced off his hand out of pure anger. In Empire, he never made peace with his dark-half in the cave. When he saw the darkness in Kylo, he panicked, because he feared his own darkness and couldn't forgive himself for the mistake he made through his fear (trying to kill his nephew instead of helping him). Real storytelling requires flawed characters, yet I hear about of is wah wah muh Luke Skywalker is weaaak! They ruined himmmm!! Luke was always about protecting his family, the ones he loved. He lashed out at Vader because Vader read his mind concerning Leia. Vader said he would turn Leia if he couldn't turn Luke, which is what set off Luke. In 4/5/6, Luke was impulsive but to say he didn't make peace with the dark side is not true. When Luke cut off Vader's hand and Palpatine told Luke to kill Vader, Luke realized he couldn't go there. He looked at his own hand that was still intact and decided he was not going to kill Vader and turn into the very thing he was trying to stop in the process. In the cave, we see him in fear and that fear leads him to kill Vader. In the process, he becomes Vader himself. That's not the path he chose when it came time for him to decide though. When the time came, he refused to give into his fear, and instead chose to save Vader even if it killed him in the process. What makes you think that he saw himself in Kylo? Luke saw not himself in Kylo but what he saw was Kylo leading to the next Empire as another Vader to Snoke's Palpatine and a threat to everything Luke/Leia/Han/rebels fought to stop. Remember, Luke said he had realized Snoke already had grasp over Kylo. Luke in the moment thought he could prevent the next new Empire from rising and threatening everything and everyone he loved by stopping Kylo before Kylo would officially join Snoke. At the same moment, he realized he couldn't go all the way without losing himself so he pulls back the moment he opens his lightsaber. That was always Luke - impulsive but not willing to go there. He knew what was at stake but he always reeled himself in and kept things under control. Anakin was always the chosen one. Anakin was the one who actually brought balance to the force. Before Anakin ever became a Jedi, the balance of the force was already out of wack. Palpatine and his padawan Count Dooku had the force out of balance, and they also had control over much of the senate, manipulating things without the Jedi able to see through the force, which was shrouded in shadows by Palpatine. Anakin took Dooku's position under Palpatine by killing him and later becoming Vader. Anakin in the end brought balance by turning back to light and killing Palpatine.  , it was Anakin who brought actual balance to the force at the end of episode 6 not Luke or anyone else. Luke was the one who was instrumental in turning Anakin back to light by refusing to kill his father. He was able to resist Palpatine by not giving himself to the dark side as Palpatine wanted. Anyways, that balance attained lasted from the end of ep 6 to the rise of Kylo Ren+Snoke, which was when the balance was once again thrown out of wack. As for the other chosen one you said Yoda referred to.. You have that quote wrong. In episode 5, Obi-Wan says to Yoda "That boy is our last hope", to which Yoda responds "There is another".. That another person Yoda was referring to as the other hope was actually Luke's twin sister Leia. Yoda was not referring to who the chosen one was at all in that scene but who the last hope was - 2 very different things. Watch that sequence again from episode 5. Obi-Wan: That boy is our last hope. Yoda: No, there is another. Conversation later on explaining who the other hope was: BEN: Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope. LUKE: Yoda spoke of another. BEN: The other he spoke of is your twin sister.LUKE: But I have no sister. BEN: Hmm. To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your father when you were born. The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him. That is the reason why your sister remains safely anonymous. LUKE: Leia! Leia's my sister. Also, by balance the jedi council was not referring to individual balance but the balance of the force as a whole in the galaxy. It doesn't matter whether Vader was too dark or Luke was too light. I completely understand what you are saying and you are correct from individual perspective that a person ought to be balanced like a grey Jedi. From that perspective, Vader was too dark and Luke was too light but that's not what the jedi council was referring to by the force being out of balance. The balance of the force being unbalanced impacts all living things, and that was what they meant by bringing back balance. That's fine, and I agree with you here. You are right about the ending. The Luke we all knew and expected did return. I had no issue with the way they ended episode 8. What I had an issue with was before the ending and the decades that Luke went into exile, closing himself off from the force. The senile old man he had become. Until right before the Yoda scene when Luke opened himself back to the force & last 10 minutes of the movie, I did not recognize that Luke. Luke was always a very optimistic, go-easy sort of guy. Somewhere along the way, he lost himself, his way and went completely away from what made him be him: his love for his family and friends and his belief in the force. Just look at his dialogue throughout episode 8 and the way he acted (except for the last 10 mins). I am sorry but that was nothing like our Luke. It was still a very good movie as a whole. I already mentioned the technical stuff being very well done from directing, production, cinematography, even the acting was good enough. The ending was decent. I had an issue mainly with how we got to the end. I will explain more about my issues with Luke arc in my post to rosez below.
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Post by bladefd on Dec 30, 2017 3:52:38 GMT
I think Luke's actions are more or less fine. He was always rash and instinctual so trying to kill Ben makes sense, and lying about it does too although I'm more ehhh on that. He disobeyed uncle owen and aunt beru wound up getting them killed and nearly himself in doing so. He rather than make the logical decision of trusting his guidance computer he went with Obi-Wan's voice and used the force to blow up the death star. Yoda telling him not to go face Vader yet because he's not ready, and he does it anyway to save his friends. Listening to no one and trying to redeem Vader when everyone else thinks he's a lost cause. That's Luke, he doesn't make rational based decisions. They're generally emotionally based, which was always his weakness and why the emperor thought he could turn him. The force was always about trusting your feelings, instincts, etc. His feelings told him Vader could still be redeemed, and that's exactly what he did. The force was never about rationality or logic or making sense to the average person. It's just how the force works. That was what Master Yoda and the jedi way taught. You make sense about that the way you say it. Losing Ben was his first real failure and perhaps he just snapped due to that failure, which ended up getting everyone in Luke's Jedi academy slaughtered by Kylo. Luke gave up after the result of his academy, the slaughter of his jedi students and took himself into exile. That's fine and makes sense, regardless of how much it might displease me. I do have to say one thing though. Giving up and closing oneself off from the force was never Luke's way and neither was it ever the Jedi way. Wouldn't you agree that Luke changed from the Luke we always knew? Could you see Luke in episode 6 or even up to the formation of his academy becoming this way and closing himself off from the force? The academy tragedy essentially changed him as a person, and he redeemed himself at the end of episode 8, but that withstanding Luke wasn't the Luke we always knew and loved from 4/5/6. That was my whole point that I think we could both agree on. I do have to be a bit accepting of the notion that tragedy changes people. Because it does change people. And it did change Luke into becoming this grumpy deranged old man that we saw in episode 8 up until the last 10 minutes of the movie. So I am wrong in getting mad at Rian for what he made Luke become, but I am still left bit disappointed to see a childhood hero of mine whom I grew up cherishing ends up talking and acting this way. It shattered everything I thought of Luke and the esteem I looked at him in just 20 minutes into the movie. Do you see where I am coming from? The ending redeemed that Luke to most of the way of our Luke, but I guess I was just expecting more of some sort of mystery and adventure from Luke that we are accustomed to during his exile. Instead his exile was closing himself off from the force and giving up from fighting for those he loved. He was just gone for decades, on that island. AKA lost his way, quit his fight. At least Yoda and Obi-Wan were waiting in exile for the twins to grow up before training - Luke in his exile was done with the fight... until Rey came along and rest is history. I never said the movie sucks or anything tho btw. I enjoyed the movie and would rate it 8.5/10, just the Luke arc left some bitter taste in my mouth.
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Post by bladefd on Dec 30, 2017 4:02:11 GMT
Which is why I think there's some major dialogue script issues with the Luke/Rey scenes. He teaches her "grey Jedi" type shit, but preaches kind of grim/dark/emotional/outright lies to her which is conflicting with what he was trying to do. I get it to an extent and you get the plot without it but damn I think a lot of the more fan boy-y complaints would have been addressed with someone looking over those lines and being like "hmmm...I get it but here's what we need for a better explanation" It does explain that Luke's teaching is still incomplete. Yoga even says he still has a lot to learn. Luke understands enough about the force to start teaching it, but as soon as the darkness comes up (the hole), he freaked the fucked out and accused Rey for being drawn to the darkside, the same way Kylo was. Like, how more obvious do you need to be? Does there need to be a line where Luke plainly states, "I'm afraid of my darkside!"? Then everybody will still be complaining about how cheap that line is. What led you to think that Luke went into exile because he struggled with the dark side? I don't think Luke was ever worried about turning to the dark side himself, in the canon movies and what transpired since episode 6. With Kylo, Luke was afraid Kylo would turn into the next Vader and he feared for what that would do to everything and everyone he cared for. He remembered what Vader and Palpatine did and he saw the same thing inside Kylo, who was also under the influence of Snoke by then. That was why he lit up the light saber in the tent to stop it before it got there, but he realized instantly that wasn't the jedi way. Kylo brings down the building on top of Luke, kills all of the other padawans by the time Luke gets out of the crumbled building. Luke felt guilty that he didn't realize the evil in Kylo until it was too late. Luke felt it was his fault for what happened to the academy because he didn't (or rather couldn't) do anything about it while he still had the chance. That was plainly said by Luke to Rey. But he just didn't know until it was too late so I don't blame Luke at all. He never acknowledged that he struggled with the dark side, and I don't think the writers were trying to go all the way there. Maybe we will find out more in episode 9, but I think Luke went in search for answers and lost his way along the path once he didn't find the answers he was searching for. That turned into exile. Not because he was afraid of turning to the dark side. You might absolutely be right and I might be wrong, but I don't get that same sense.
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Post by OutRosez on Dec 30, 2017 7:20:32 GMT
I think Luke's actions are more or less fine. He was always rash and instinctual so trying to kill Ben makes sense, and lying about it does too although I'm more ehhh on that. He disobeyed uncle owen and aunt beru wound up getting them killed and nearly himself in doing so. He rather than make the logical decision of trusting his guidance computer he went with Obi-Wan's voice and used the force to blow up the death star. Yoda telling him not to go face Vader yet because he's not ready, and he does it anyway to save his friends. Listening to no one and trying to redeem Vader when everyone else thinks he's a lost cause. That's Luke, he doesn't make rational based decisions. They're generally emotionally based, which was always his weakness and why the emperor thought he could turn him. The force was always about trusting your feelings, instincts, etc. His feelings told him Vader could still be redeemed, and that's exactly what he did. The force was never about rationality or logic or making sense to the average person. It's just how the force works. That was what Master Yoda and the jedi way taught. You make sense about that the way you say it. Losing Ben was his first real failure and perhaps he just snapped due to that failure, which ended up getting everyone in Luke's Jedi academy slaughtered by Kylo. Luke gave up after the result of his academy, the slaughter of his jedi students and took himself into exile. That's fine and makes sense, regardless of how much it might displease me. I do have to say one thing though. Giving up and closing oneself off from the force was never Luke's way and neither was it ever the Jedi way. Wouldn't you agree that Luke changed from the Luke we always knew? Could you see Luke in episode 6 or even up to the formation of his academy becoming this way and closing himself off from the force? The academy tragedy essentially changed him as a person, and he redeemed himself at the end of episode 8, but that withstanding Luke wasn't the Luke we always knew and loved from 4/5/6. That was my whole point that I think we could both agree on. I do have to be a bit accepting of the notion that tragedy changes people. Because it does change people. And it did change Luke into becoming this grumpy deranged old man that we saw in episode 8 up until the last 10 minutes of the movie. So I am wrong in getting mad at Rian for what he made Luke become, but I am still left bit disappointed to see a childhood hero of mine whom I grew up cherishing ends up talking and acting this way. It shattered everything I thought of Luke and the esteem I looked at him in just 20 minutes into the movie. Do you see where I am coming from? The ending redeemed that Luke to most of the way of our Luke, but I guess I was just expecting more of some sort of mystery and adventure from Luke that we are accustomed to during his exile. Instead his exile was closing himself off from the force and giving up from fighting for those he loved. He was just gone for decades, on that island. AKA lost his way, quit his fight. At least Yoda and Obi-Wan were waiting in exile for the twins to grow up before training - Luke in his exile was done with the fight... until Rey came along and rest is history. I never said the movie sucks or anything tho btw. I enjoyed the movie and would rate it 8.5/10, just the Luke arc left some bitter taste in my mouth. Hard disagree on Yoda and the order teaching emotion. They didn't want any attachments to anyone or anything for the Jedi. Its why Padme and Anakin had to have their relationship in secret, same with Obi-Wan and what'sherface until he ended it. No love, no want, no desire, plus they shunned anger, fear, etc. It wasn't purely logic based and I didn't claim it was, I was just saying Luke's never been based on logic mostly on emotional and instinctual reactions to situations, people, and things. I can imagine him closing himself off to the force for one reason: as easily as we can assume he did so, he also reconnected when he needed to. It all made sense to me. Plus he left the map because he wanted to be found if he was really needed. It wasn't like he just left the galaxy to be fucked over. He knows that the force has a strange way of making people come together when it is necessary and so he left a map in case he was needed before he died. I agree that the deconstruction of Luke isn't that easy on the surface to accept for anyone who is a long time fan of the franchise to understand, afterall he was painted as the golden boy basically for 2-3 generations. It makes sense people don't like it, and I even think Rian could have EASILY made it a better/smoother transition with some dialogue changes and an extra scene or two.
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Post by bladefd on Dec 30, 2017 8:37:52 GMT
Hard disagree on Yoda and the order teaching emotion. They didn't want any attachments to anyone or anything for the Jedi. Its why Padme and Anakin had to have their relationship in secret, same with Obi-Wan and what'sherface until he ended it. No love, no want, no desire, plus they shunned anger, fear, etc. It wasn't purely logic based and I didn't claim it was, I was just saying Luke's never been based on logic mostly on emotional and instinctual reactions to situations, people, and things. I can imagine him closing himself off to the force for one reason: as easily as we can assume he did so, he also reconnected when he needed to. It all made sense to me. Plus he left the map because he wanted to be found if he was really needed. It wasn't like he just left the galaxy to be fucked over. He knows that the force has a strange way of making people come together when it is necessary and so he left a map in case he was needed before he died. I agree that the deconstruction of Luke isn't that easy on the surface to accept for anyone who is a long time fan of the franchise to understand, afterall he was painted as the golden boy basically for 2-3 generations. It makes sense people don't like it, and I even think Rian could have EASILY made it a better/smoother transition with some dialogue changes and an extra scene or two. As for feelings... You know, there is a slight difference between feeling and expressing an emotion. Emotions are a stimuli response to something. Feelings are not necessarily the same thing. It is tough to explain. Essentially, emotions are short term response to something but feelings might be longer term. Think of it this way.. You call me a fuckhead and slap me in the face. I get angry at you. If I wasn't a trained Jedi, I would slap you back and completely lose my composure, perhaps begin to despise you on my path to the dark side. If I were a Jedi, I would not respond with slap back at you but I would still feel anger. I would let the anger flow right through me and keep my composure because I am feeling at peace. It would probably be downright impossible to avoid the emotion of anger altogether but it is definitely possible to control that anger. Throughout the canon movies, you saw emotions from jedis including Yoda, Obi-Wan and even Windu. But those emotions were always under control. It's all about control and keeping your overall feeling of keeping inner peace. As a Jedi, you can't let your emotions take control over you. That was the difference between Anakin and Obi-Wan. You saw emotions from Obi-Wan many times (and even Yoda when he found out the younglings were murdered in ep 3) but he never gave in to those emotions. He kept control and let the force do its thing. Anyways, back to my post you are referring to.. Let me see if I can explain differently. In the context of my previous post, the belief is every living thing is guided by the force so you have to trust your feelings and let the force guide you. That's not the same as letting your emotions guide you - there is a subtle difference there. Essentially to trust your instincts. You feel your instincts, but your instincts are not an emotion. Do you see the difference there? The force is very much a living thing that flows through your feelings rather than be something tangible. That is why Obi-Wan told Luke to trust his feelings when shooting into the core of the first death star and to let the force flow through him, to guide him on his path. I don't know if I explained well, falling asleep..
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T'Chayda
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Juice Man
Posts: 7,216
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Post by T'Chayda on Dec 30, 2017 8:46:44 GMT
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Post by bladefd on Dec 31, 2017 0:59:14 GMT
I was thinking further today about that discussion on feeling and Jedi order. I went on google searching for direct quotes from the canon movies - 1 to 6.
Found this list on feelings: You can clearly see there that they are not talking about emotions when they talk about trusting your feelings. They are talking about instincts, gut feeling, intuition.
In the jedi teachings, feeling is about intuition and trusting the force to guide you. If you are strong in the force, the force flows through you if you just let it. So be at peace and have faith in the force to guide you. The way you do that is by letting your instincts lead you. Don't resist your instincts because if you do then you are resisting the force. That is why saying to trust your feelings is a very different thing from saying to trust your emotions from the jedi perspective as I mentioned earlier. By feelings, they are not talking at all about emotions. The jedi way is about opening yourself to the force, which is through your feelings or another way to express it is your intuition.
By quote "feel, don't think" from Qui-Gon. Think of it in this manner... you ask yourself: should I do x or y? Jedi way tells you to let the force decide through your gut feeling. The non-Jedi way is to take the time to think to yourself whether you should do x or y by breaking it down piece by piece, discussing, debating, etc.
It's essentially the idea in human religions. Our religions say god has a purpose/path/road for each of us so have faith in this living entity 'God' to guide us. It resists logic and thinking through rationality and instead you are to let your faith guide you. That is essentially the jedi religion in a nutshell except god is replaced by the force.
Once we break that down, instinctual reactions is the very thing that made Luke a very powerful Jedi because he let the force guide him through those very instincts. He was bit impulsive by rushing in to Bespin against Yoda's wishes, but that was what his feelings told him to do. And he did succeed in saving his friends and resisting joining Vader. R2D2 also was instrumental in activating the hyperdrive. It all worked out in the end. One could argue that the force was what caused all that. Same with using his instincts/feelings to guide the shots into the death star. It all worked out thanks to the force.
That's true. I didn't think of that.
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